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SFX: Sound of talking at picnic.

Junior Day:
"I Never Been This Lonesome Before" (music)
There's a light in the window . . .

Gladys Hoskins: You mentioned Louellen. That was Cornet Lewis Coal Company, and just suddenly it's gone. And that used to be a nice mining camp at Louellen. And they had a row of those large two-story houses, and it was so nice. And it's just gone. And it—you say, "Oh, gee, this is terrible. Cornet Lewis is closed," And you'd just accept it and think about it and say, "Gee, I'm sorry." And then time passes and everything, and then somebody says, "Oh, you know, I think Threepoint—" I'm just saying Threepoint. I don't know the time frame exactly for that but "Threepoint's closing." Well, this is another really bad thing, and you're really sorry, but, you see, it didn't happen, it just like one morning you get up and all these things are just gone.

Bill Gent: Yes, kids you know, account of jobs, a lot of the young generation had to go further north to get jobs like to Lexington and on up into Michigan, Ohio, other states, you know to get better paying jobs and a lot safer ones and to feed their families and stuff and so ever'thin's pretty well quietened down for the mines now. A lot of the big companies that was through here is shut down now. Lot of 'em. Now's went out of business. When shut the mines [rooster crows] down and went to another area, another state. Fellow wants to get him a job or something you know that pays a bit that's good and he don't want to work in the mines, he'd have to leave Harlan County to do so.

Gladys: Right now, I can look back and, it's like a friend. You don't realize that, "Well, I lost this friend two years ago, and three years ago another one, and then here maybe I go a long time and, and I've lost another good, dependable friend that I loved," and suddenly you look around and . . . it's sort of that way with this, with this county. We're gradually making strides toward coming back in a different way, because coal will always be important to this economy. We will always have, I think, some mining industry, but I don't think anybody ever thinks it'll ever be back like it was, not ever again.

Arthur Johnson:
"Lonesome Dove"
Oh don't you see that lonesome dove
It flies from vine to vine
It's moaning for its own true love
Just like I mourn for mine,
Just like I mourn for mine, my love,
Believe me what I say
You are the only one I'll love 
Until my dying day.

The blackest crow on yonder hill 
Though she may turn white
Should ever I prove false to thee 
Bright day will turn to night
Bright day will turn to night, my love,
Believe me what I say
You are the only one I'll love
Until my dying day. 

I wish I were ten thousand miles 
Or on some distant shore
Or down in some low valley place
Where the wild beast, how it roar
Where the wild beast how it roar, my love
Believe me what I say
You are the only one I'll love
Until my dying day. 

Q: So when did you go to Chicago?
Chester Napier: '59.
Q: You couldn't get a job.
Chester: Couldn't get a job here. Well, I had a job, got a job in the mines. And I went out, one Monday morning, I went out to work and all the top of the rock, they were saying it fell in. They told me, "It will take us about three days, if you want to help us clean this up and we'll go to work." I looked at it, and I said, "No, Dad never did want me to go in the mines anyway, and I believe I'll not go."
Q: What did it feel like to work inside?
Chester: Oh, it wasn't too good at all. I was bad to chew tobacco and they didn't have no place to spit. And chewing tobacco you gotta spit, that's for sure. I didn't have no place to spit, and I started smoking then. But, you know, I liked the money. I hadn't been used to having that much money. Back here if I made six or eight dollars a week, I thought I had a lot of money. But when I started bringing home 50, 60 dollars a week, then I was really, I thought I was rolling in the dough. [Laughs] 

"Lonesome Dove" conclusion.

Gladys: Well, I'm just trying to think about the mall there. The Woodland Plaza was the first one, the one down, the little strip mall there. It was a farm where the mall is. That was Skidmore Farm. And at one time out there, there was a little knoll with a�just as round as it could be, and there used to be a little racetrack around it that people would tell about the Britons and Skidmores used to have races, horse races, there. But that was one huge farm, the Skidmore Farm. I hate to see every place being just alike. I think the whole country, and the whole world, we're just gradually losing our individuality.

Bill Johnson:
"Courting Song"
"When're ya comin' to see me, to see me, to see me,
When're ya comin' to see me my dear little reckless boy."

"Well I'd thought I'd come on Saturday, a Saturday, a Saturday,
I'd thought I'd come on Saturday if the weather's all right."

"How long are you goin' to court me, to court me, to court me,
How long are you goin' to court me my dear little reckless boy." 

"I'd thought I'd court ya all night, all night, all night
I'd thought I'd court ya all night if the weather's all right." 

"Well when are we gonna get married, married, married
When we gonna get married my dear little reckless boy." 

"I thought we'd marry on Sunday, a Sunday, a Sunday,
I thought we'd marry on Sunday if the weather's all right." 

"Well how we gonna go to the wedding, my wedding, the wedding,
How we gonna go to the wedding my dear little reckless boy." 

"I'd thought we'd go in a ox cart, the ox cart, the ox cart,
I'd thought we'd go in a ox cart, if the weather's all right." 

"Well why can't we go in the buggy, the buggy, the buggy,
Why can't we go in the buggy my dear little reckless boy." 

"Why the ox won't fit in a buggy, the buggy, the buggy,
Ox won't fit in the buggy, even if the weather's all right." 

"Well who ya gonna bring to the weddin', the weddin', the weddin',
Who ya gonna bring to the weddin' my dear little reckless boy." 

"I'd thought I'd bring my children, my children, my children,
Thought I'd bring my children if the weather's all right."

"Why I didn't know you had any children, any children, any children,
didn't know you had any children my dear little reckless boy." 

"Oh, yes, I've got five children, five children, five children,
Yes I've got five, six if I counted them right."

"Well there ain't gonna be no weddin', no weddin', no weddin',
Ain't gonna be no weddin' even if the weather's all right."

SFX: Napier family at picnic

Annie: And we've got our own language here. I'll tell you, it's a language different than you see in the books. . . . But see "tomatoes" is "maters" "potatoes" is "taters." "Taters" and "maters." And them little um, salad tomatoes, that's "tommy toes."[laughs]
Q: I didn't know that one.
Annie: You didn't know that one.
Q: I know "taters" and "maters." I knew 'n I figured, I had, I had it figured out. But, ah, "tommy toes."

SFX: Napier family at picnic

Arthur Johnson:
"The Dream of the Miner's Child" (music)
A miner was leaving his home for his work
When he heard his little girl scream 
And then as he knelt by the little girl's bed,
"Oh Daddy I've had such a dream." 

"Oh Daddy don't go to the mine today
For dreams how so often come true
Oh Daddy dear Daddy, please don't go away
We never could live without you." 

"I dreamed that the mine was all sealed with fire
The men had all fought for their lives
And down at the mouth of the mine, Dear Dad,
Was covered with sweethearts and wives." 

"Oh Daddy don't go to the mine today
For dreams how so often come true.
Oh Daddy dear Daddy, please don't go away
We never could live without you." 

"Go down to the village and tell your dear friends
As sure as the bright stars who shine
That something is going to happen today
Oh Daddy don't go to the mines." 

"Oh Daddy don't go to the mine today
For dreams how so often come true
Oh Daddy dear Daddy, please don't go away
We never could live without you." 

Annie: See what they did they, they drained these humongous water holes back here in the mountains . They had had acid in it, a lot of calorphore. It had a lot of bacteria in it. And when we'd get these heavy rains, these holes of water would break loose or overflow, you know, and it's just, it kill everything in the creek. And what that is, that's a deep mines that's been closed off. And occasionally the top will fall down, you know, and it's like a mine blowout. And it turned the lake orange. The water was so bad the lake was just orange. And it
Q: Over Martin Port?
Annie: M-hm. Well, the Crank's Creek Lane. But it killed everything in it.
Q: I mean it's ah, it's as if the land was in a state of permanent war.
Annie: M-hm. Pretty Much. These old mines, you know, where they got the timbers and even roof bolts, the top will come down and sit on the bottom and that's when the water goes. And it's bad. 

Q: You were here when the floods came?
Chester Napier: Oh, yeah, yeah. See, we sold the property until they stripped the mines out. When they done the strip mines, so—we sold it. They were going to strip mine it. I didn't have money to fight them in court. Which it wouldn't have done me any good anyway. I owned the surface rights, but I didn't own the mineral rights. I had 40, 42 acres more or less. And well they come in there one time to start stripping before, I mean, I come in from work. They been trying to buy the property from me, and I wouldn't sell. So I come in from work, and they'd moved their equipment in, gonna start the next morning. So next morning I, well, I called Noye and I told him "I'll be late tomorrow coming in to work. If you need a load of coal hauled before I get there, you go ahead and haul it." I said, "I'll be late. I got something I have to do." So I go down and I park my car across the road there. See, it was private road. They didn't even have right of way across me. To come across my property. And I blocked the road, and they come in. I asked them what the hell they think was going on. "We're gonna start stripping today." I said, "I don't think so. This property's mine. I want to see your contract. You got a right of way to come across this property, I want to to see it." "It's county property. It's a county road." I said, "No, this is private." I said, "From where my line starts down there to where my line ends up here is private." And I said, "You see that sign there said 'No Trespassing'?" And then I said, "I'm going on to work. But when I come in from work today I don't want to see no equipment up here. I want it all out of here. And I don't want you to leave it 'til tomorrow to take it out." I said, "Tell you what. I got a brand new 30-30 hanging up there on the wall, and I tell you, you can replace that piece of machinery with money." I said, "But a good operator is hard to replace because when he sticks that dozer blade in my property I'm going to brain him off of there." I said, "Now I've tried to be fair with you people." I said, "Deep mining I didn't mind. I let them deep mine and pay me will rights coming out over my property." I said, "But when it comes to strip mining I don't want it, and I'm going to fight it." And I tried to get some people to start helping me fight it. But nobody would help me. They told me they were going to level it off and make a airport up there. And I mean, I tried to get everybody that lived in the area up there to start helping me fight strip mine. Nobody wanted to. Okay, I moved out of there in '75. 

Portelli: You know, one of the things that struck me when I was reading the transcriptions for the interviews, was that you asked a lot of questions about the coal mines and the strikes, and almost inevitably they either didn't remember or came from a different community. It seemed that your focus still was on trying to piece back together the story of struggle during the coal mining era and it wasn't there. And it struck me, that here my image of Harlan County, USA, coming from New York and Philadelphia is still one of Appalachia and this notion of a community frozen in time. And that really they're not like that. That the oral traditions and that history of story telling and music making that draws academics and folklorists and musicians and others back to Appalachia is really disappearing. Or that one is disappearing and another one is emerging that has Vietnam in it. And has the environmental movement, and the children's health movement and all of the rest of it. The mining Harlan County that we academics loved 20 years ago is a relic. It's not there to be mined anymore. 

Q: How did this, you know, this thriving community relate to the fact that at the same time it was also a troubled community, that there was trouble, there was struggles, strikes, conflict?
Gladys Hoskins: I was never involved, or my family was never involved in any way in any of those—
Q: Like when, for instance, when they, when they sent in the National Guard, which I think was both in '37 and '39�they were stationed in town as well, weren't they? 
Gladys: Yes, and I can remember seeing them march down Main Street . . . that was, I guess, in '39 . . .
Q: And what were your reactions then at that time? Did you feel, you know, like the�there's a civil war going on? What�how did you react?
Gladys: No, I didn't feel exactly like that. Of course, I was a teenager. And I think it was somehow, this might sound terrible to say, but somehow it was a little bit exciting.
Q: Probably. It always is.
Gladys: You know, it just seemed that way. 

Portelli: The way I put it in that seminar was maybe the class struggle is over and we lost. And so we're playing another game. Well, I'll put it this way. Even though it's just one county, it's very diversified. And on this particular trip I've concentrated more on the people I knew best, and these people are from the Crank's Creek and Martin's Fork. And that is not where most of the union organizing took place. The battle of Everts in the thirtees . . . Everts is—it's almost an hour's drive to go to Everts from there. And a lot of the other things were at Straightcreek, which is on the other side of town. It's almost in Bill County. So this particular corner of the county has less of that tradition, although at least one of the great battles in '41 took place right there. They talk about it in a number of interviews. Actually, one of the first people Annie took me to see was her uncle who had been wounded in that battle, in the battle of Crummies.

Annie: Well, I don't know, exactly. I got three items, and I wouldn't take nothing for none of them. We've got an old '41 Colts pistol that was used in the union organizing. It belonged to Chester's third grandfather down, and it was patented in 1888, '92, and '93. They ain't no way I'd get rid of that gun.
Q: How was it used?
Annie: It was used in the union organizing. There was five men killed in one night with it. 
Q: Where was it?
Annie: The men was killed right over here at Crummies. 
Q: At Crummies? Is it the battle that you told me about where Uncle Pleney was in.
Annie: I'm not sure if Uncle Pleney was in that one or if it was before that.
Q: Uncle Pleney's was in 1941.
Annie: Somewhere in that category. But this one man killed five men with it in one night, 'cause it's got the handles notched. And then later, he dropped the gun and it went off and killed him. 

Chester: I got a lot of guns, don't I? Almost everywhere you reach I could pick one up. Maybe another one there and another one up there. 

Portelli: So sometimes you get a fragment from one person, a fragment that. But basically the reason you read books and the reason you do interviews is you want to hear things you don't expect. You're not looking for confirmation, even though it feels good when you get them. You know, you need a nice balance of some confirmation and something that will make you feel like you're in new territory altogether. And I guess this has been part of the experience. I mean, if you talk to people who were in the Brookside strike . . .

Crowd Noise

Joan Robinett: One of the other things that we asked to get all sites soil sampling was, "Did you eat vegetables grown in the flood plain?" because this side is, is along the Cumberland's, in the flood plain area and we knew especially in '77 everything was under water. After that flood, people continued to raise vegetables along the flood plain there. The plant was, there was like five feet of water inside the plant in '77 that washed all of the chemicals and things out into the community along the flood plain so when the EPA came in to talk about doing off-site sampling, they said, 'Well the characteristics of the chemicals found here, they don't migrate very far." And we said, "Wait a minute. You know. It doesn't have to actually flood for water to get in, into people's gardens and basements and stuff." And so we used that information . . .

Annie Napier: (right channel) Well I just 'n I hardly ever talk about it but, see that was up in the Newey Branch. And ah, then by the end of that year they had went all the way around the head of the holler back behind us and behind Leah and the holler. And the silt started washing down that winter and the next spring we didn't have nowhere to raise a garden. It wouldn't even grow. Where'd we raised enough corn to winter the cow and the horse, and enough food, you know, for us basically to keep us all winter. We couldn't raise a garden anymore. We couldn't grow any more because the land was, it was just dead with strip mine silt. It contains a lot of acid. It takes ten years to build back a half inch of topsoil.

Joan: (left channel) And so we used that information because everybody that lived along the flood plain, they raise a garden. They don't now but they did then. And they ate vegetables from it and so we knew that from research, some of the rooted vegetables would absorb some of the chemicals that were found on the site. And it was, it was a possible pathway of exposure ah, for families. And we used that information to get them to do some more off-site sampling in the community. And we had some specific goals in mind. I can pass these around also. About getting more wells tested. And the soil sampling. And we wanted to know where folks were getting their water from because the company responsible early on under consent order had to supply a public water system.

Joan: Ah, but there was only part of the community that was put on public water system and everybody else is left on well water. Ah, for, because the company determined right away, they decided where the pollution stopped, okay? [audience laughs.] The company responsible for the problem said, "It stopped here."

Annie: (right channel) Well, see now, that's what's happened here. We've got all kinds of land that's not growable. You can't grow food on it. But a lot of the land just won't grow anymore on account of strip mine silt and landfill. And it's really made it hard on a lot of people and then like you said, you know, houses are going up all the time and people just don't have nowhere to go. They don't have anywhere to make a garden. It's kind of complicated. Now we raise this garden here which is about an acre, acre and a half, and then Liddy loves to see something grow, so Chester tends that garden down there. He tends it, it works me to death in summer time for beans and stuff but it's good eating.

Joan: (left channel) And so we're, there's still like an ongoing investigation as to actually where the pollution has spread in the community. So, we've gotten some limited well monitoring. The state division of water has been more responsive than the federal EPA actually, even though it's a federal superfund site in getting well water monitored. But we wanted to know how many people, within this area, were still left on well water. So when we yelled about testing wells and monitoring for pollution we would know, I mean we had a general idea, because we know the community. That, we could say, you know, "We did this, and, and this, this is who we have left," and so we, I mean, there was many, many different things that have come out of this and it's still coming out.

Q: (right channel) Q: But there was a, ah, there was a time when people were more, were organized about these things and then what happened, because it seems to me like that has been lost.
Annie: Organized about what? Strip mining? No, it's not lost, we're still fighting it. A lot of people's not as active in it as as they used to be, well actually the most active people on Crank's Creek in first place were me and Becky. But we've go to strip mine hearings. For a long time there wasn't a soul that went but me and her because they thought we couldn't do nothing. It wasn't worth the fight. Nobody'd listen to us no way. And come to find out they did listen to us. It was a long hard pull but when you go into a strip mine hearing and you've got four or five lawyers for the other person and you got two hillbilly women sitting there that knows more than they do. I've heard them say that.

Joan (left channel) It could be that they were elderly and didn't have transportation and if they wanted to participate, so then we were able to know what that reason was. We found a lot of fear, folks that didn't participate, there was a lot of fear about getting involved and being vocal. Fear of job loss and repercussions from being vocal about not having clean water. And we also found some "Well, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just not interested" and that stuff. The folks that were just not interested mainly were elderly people, parents with children, and grandparents that had grandchildren there. We had a lot of support. We've had a really good interaction with workers and community also, which is very rare on environmental issues that you have plant workers that would work with an environmental group. But we found that, in this particular situation workers didn't know that they were working in cancer causing chemicals until the well to the mobile home park next door to the plant was shut down because of that.

Arthur Johnson: "Coal Miner's Daughter" (music)

Portelli: And on the other hand. They've had the industrial revolution. They've had it as hard as it comes. And they had post-industrialism before anybody else got. it. I mean they were post-industrial in the fifties. So it's all there. In a nutshell.

Annie Napier: That was one heck of a trip. Well, see, I used to read all the history books I could. Oh, I'd get so wrapped up when I was reading about the chariot races. I could sit for hours at a time and just forget I was even alive. I'd just get completely carried away with it. I can still do that with a good book. But I always said, in my head, "Some of these days, I'll go there. I want to see this." And then I'd read about the places, the buildings and a lot of other things, the religious people that had been prosecuted there. It was just, it was one of them places. Now, I read a lot about Canada, but Canada don't appeal to me like Italy did. That was one place I always wanted to see.

Portelli: (left channel) You know, it's always hard in an interview to get people to tell you things that they know you know. An interview is really something where you discover things. You know stories. I couldn't get Annie, for instance, to tell me about coming to Rome.
Charles Hardy III: And you keep pushing her. You can see it. A number of times you keep pushing her to, "Tell, me this. Remember when we first met." And she just sort of brushes it off and moves to something else. 
Portelli: Because of course, we know this. She's not going to tell me the story again. You should hear her tell other people. In fact, this is one interview technique. You get another listener. But you see, basically �well, there are two levels. I don't know how we're going to do it. Maybe you can just ask me about it. You can interview me.

Annie: (right channel) Yeah, but a lot of it wasn't. See, we still got to go to the Colosseum. They didn't have the chariot races, but the foundation, the buildings, the whole thing, you know, was still there. And them old churches that you all took me to and the Catacombs. The Catacombs, it was just like breathtaking to me, because this had been a dream since I was a little girl, just some day I would go there. I knew some day I'd go there, but, see, I'd never flown before. I'd never been on a airplane before. And when you called that day, I was terrified of flying, but when you called that day, my mouth kicked in before my brain had a chance to function. 
Hardy: I remember that.
Annie: And I said, "Yes! Yes!" 
Q: I'll go. 
Annie: I'll go. And then I got off the phone and I told Chester, I said, "I must be out of my cottonpickin' mind." And he said, "Why?" I said, "I just accepted a trip to Italy, and I know I have to fly." And he said, "Oh, God love you." [laughs] But, you know, the excitement of the trip, goin' where I'd always wanted to go, that overrode my fear of flying.

Riverside Church: "Feed Me Jesus" (music)

Hardy: I think we've got some nice connections that we can weave back and forth.
Portelli: There's a lot in those tapes 
Hardy: Anything else you think we should add at this point?
Portelli: I can't think of—no. Not that this time. 

Bill Gent: I'm not too familiar with history. Of my own country. Or any others. I don't remember where you had mines in your country or not. 
Q: Not so much, not a big mining country. 
Bill: I would like to visit that country. 
Q: It's awful pretty. 
Bill: Folks that come to it in the movies or somebody, I don't know, send me a postcard. 
Q: I will. I'll send you a postcard. 
Bill: Close as I've come to it. 
Q: Okay, soon as I get home, I'll send you both a postcard. 

Credits: You have been listening to "I Can Almost See the Lights of Home: A Field Trip to Harlan County. Kentucky." This essay-in-sound was written by Charles Hardy III and Alessandro Portelli based on interviews recorded in October 1996 by Alessandro Portelli. Charles Hardy III produced and engineered the essay, which was supported by the Columbia University Oral History Research Office, the West Chester University Faculty Development Program, the English Department of the University of Rome "La Sapienza," and a grant from the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education. The voices you have heard are those of Annie, Chester, and Dee Dee Napier, Liddy Surgener, Hiram and Junior Day, Becky Ruth Brae, William and Omy Gent, Gladys Hoskins, Lowell Wagner, and Joan Robinett. Original songs written and performed by Arthur Johnson and Becky Ruth Brae. Special thanks to Annie Napier, Ron Grele, Mary Marshall Clark, Steve Rowland, and the participants of the 1996 Oral History Research Office Oral History Summer Institute.

Q (underneath credits): Okay. Well, is there something I should have asked you about and I haven't asked? Something that you think I ought to know?
Bill: I prob'ly think of a hundred things prob'ly after you left.
Q: That's the way it always goes.
Bill: I give you an invitation to when you do come back in again. Hopefully it be in the summer and we don't interfere with your ticket.
Q: It'd be nicer.
Bill: And if you like, we'll go where we was borned out there and let you see some of the old houses, log houses. Some dates back�one was built in Virginia and it was marked and took apart and hauled from Virginia over where it's presently at.

Farewells
You all come back, Take care. He's goin to go down and work try to start it up a little bit. Be good be careful and drive careful. Take care of everything up in Italy there, across the pond. Well, Mother I'm running . . . come back and see us if we don't get to see you no more. You'll see us next time. All righty. 

Farewells from Church. Man's Voice: Have a safe trip. 

Portelli: I'm still looking for the class struggle. The only thing is they've changed my definition of class struggle. But they're not looking for the class struggle. They're fighting it, even though they wouldn't call it that way. And a number of people wouldn't call it that way. But because the state they're in is defined by class, it's caused by class, then the struggle they face is a class struggle. 
 

Bill Johnson:
"My Home up in the Hills" (music)
Come and see me in my home up in the hills
Where the mocking bird is singing by the rail
And the lonesome dove that sings at break of day
From my home I wander never far away. 

When I was a lad a cabin was my home
As I watched the river flow I longed to roam
But as seasons come and go with friends so near 
I enjoy my mountain home from year to year. 

Friends and neighbors gathered round when work was done
'Neath the tree there in our yard that set off sun
Where we'd talk and sing of times both good and bad
Oh such memories of those folk make my heart glad. 

Once I wandered from my home in search of fame
Sought for fortune and to make myself a name
Then one day a whistle blew along the track
Tell my ma her wanderin' boy is comin' back. 

Many years have past and still the river flows
Late at night I listen to the wind that blows
Spring or summer, fall or when the winter chills
I shall ever be at home up in the hills.

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